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Opinion
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 03/06/2008, 4:58 AM
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ironsmad
 
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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I might concede a tiny bit if he took in the government's data of higher infant mortality rates of foreign born mothers.This subject alone worries me pre -natal checks and health visitors are doing enough surly every child must get the same care before and after birth. Where I grew up we had an an rubbish incinerator,Bergers paint factory (which blew up) two chemical plants one was May and Bakers which stunk the the whole east side of town out, Cape asbestos Fords,Battery factory + stubble burning from nearby farms.I don't think ADHD was about then , you was either a good kid or a bad kid good kid good parents bad kid bad family.As far as I can remember Two kids had asthma in our year about 1500 in the school at that time.If with all this industry in the area plus a coal fired power station down the road and the coal fires how did all my generation survive or have we?
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03/06/2008, 7:21 AM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Basically Dr van Steenis/MR described a baseline that they concluded was down to incinerator PM2.5. All infant mortality data was merely adding up government ONS ward data over a 3 year timespan to take out annual peaks and just mapping it. They spotted generally downwind infant mortality rates were 3x (300%) higher in downwind wards compared with upwind wards. This was common around most incineratorsThis was the incinerators contribution. In Kirklees, where a huge Pakistani communities in several Dewsbury wards, the downwind infant mortality rates were 9x (900%) higher than downwind wards. This was picked up as being a real UK anomaly. If you read between the lines, here might be your relatively contributary answer.
Burning-it took me a bit to understand this and it gets down to which fuel produces most different particle size, and ref asthma proliferation.
PM2.5 production is the deadiest (as a lung/blood vehicle for toxics) and oil based fuels (heavy oil, solvents, orimulsion fuel, dirty diesel, plastics, mixed waste with plastics, refuse dervived fuel RDF,paints, sun rubber) metals, PAHS attach themselves to them and this is how they piggyback into the bloodstream.
PM10 larger particles are more benign (or different) as they don't pass the lung /blood barrier as a vehicle, get trapped by lung lining/mucus and get coughed up/walled off. Basically coal burnng produces most of these particles. The problem with coal burning wasn't the particle size but was the Sulphur Dioxide SO2 that burnt the lung surface irrepairably. This was the London pea souper event of 1953 and Danona, US 1948.
Coal (wood, biomass,stubble) burning really reduced from 1970's onwards and filtering captured these larger particles in power facilities. After the miners strike coal use reduced ie steelmaking fell and maggie dashed for gas (and oil/orimulsion). Orimulsion got knocked on the head pretty quickly in the late 1980s/early 1990's, if you remember, Dr van VS was at the centre of this in South Wales, stopping Orimulsion buring UKwide. Before 1970's waste incinerators burnt with coal, and didn't have the same % of plastics /packaging in the fuel. Incinerator hazard came to light in 1970's in California (remember Quincy episode) when plastic/tyre burning led to the dioxins concerns, but missed the later PM2.5 problem in later high temperator incinerators.
Oil based burning proliferated from the 1970s, oil refineries, oil burning power station (most standby stations now), cement kilns burning mixed tyres/coal/RDF, heavy oil/sovents in trains freight locos/125s, excavation vehicles on opencast (proliferation after the miners strike) taking over from deepmining, excavators on landfills/ 1980's/1990,s road/motorway building, proliferation of road haulage (worst before cleaner diesel/filtering units). Vehicle brake pad/drums also produce PM2.5 particles in local/ low level amounts.
So this is why asthma profileration has followed oil (PM2.5>PM1) based burning/combustion proliferation, where coal burning PM15>PM5 didn't, or caused different lung problems(eg bonchitis). Coal burning/chemical factories led to different illnesses/pathways.
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03/06/2008, 11:48 AM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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H.S.E info on 45 main causes of occupational Asthma ; one caught my eye Cockroaches =dust from the eggs salivia,faeces and cast skins .Pesticides and insecticides must have affect on the Norwich area for kids with behavior problems .What info and data is there for Air quality around the chemical plant and does the MileCross estate have higher than average health problems?
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03/06/2008, 8:36 PM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Cockcroaches? Not Sure. The house dust mite theory was blown apart and quietly buried 2-3 years ago .
Organo phosphates pesticides are linked a range of illnesses.
If you walk along Sweet Briar Road /Boundary Rd, breath in, you will smell something very much like weedkiller, 24/7 typically Monosodium acid methanearsonate: 2,4-D, dimethylamine Mecoprop-p, dimethylamine salt: Dicamba, dimethylamine
Yes to the last as Norfolk PCT well knows
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04/06/2008, 4:32 AM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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I drive past the plant every night from work and the smell is gassy rotten eggs ,is it steam or the processing of chemicals from the chimneys that is released .The River wensum does that feed the water reservoir in Norwich.If it does how well is it filted and tested for any nasties.
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04/06/2008, 2:55 PM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Contaminant=pathway=receptor=A pollutoion linkage=who cares and cover it all up or play it down and it might go away.Dagenham plant has been dismantled.
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04/06/2008, 10:01 PM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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I am concerned about it. But I must be honest to say I don't the full range of emissions off site in the emissions permit IPPC. I would suspect it to be older in issue that most modern incinerators, which have tighter emissions controls/monitoring. I think only personnel working for Bayer would have a clue what they vent/emit;law to themselves.
Steam doesn't require a chimney.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.646961,1.254874&spn=0.000666,0.001371&t=h&z=19
Any clue what comes out of this??
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05/06/2008, 3:16 PM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Its amazing what you can see from above ,even more the amount of substances they have released into air phenols ammonia copper dimethylforamide hydrogen cyanide plus many more I know some do occur naturally but this is man made waste ,and yes loads more enters the environment via the drains trifuralin arsenic cadium phenols(chlorinated) and many more. What pollutions fallout comes from the u.e.a?radiation?
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07/06/2008, 3:49 AM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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In Hamburg they have now banned Italian hospital waste as it has 80x radioactive levels. I don't them them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7441342.stm
Just shows how careful one has to be with input, and that it can be very nasty.
Plasma /vitrification can be use to capture radioactive waste in the plasmarok
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07/06/2008, 2:24 PM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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what affects on the environment would radioactive waste being disposed via drains is there a safe limit ? and does cost rule all.
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08/06/2008, 11:27 AM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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The problem with dispersal of radioactive material via the drains is the same as incineration to the air. One can't guarentee against bioaccumulation over time. I refer to the decline of the Isle of Man's shellfish industry as a result of low level radioactive outlet from Sellifield..
Grundon to the west of London is licensed to incinerate low grade radioactive waste, (the same for the Fawley incinerator). These produce and disperse radioactive PM2.5 size particles downwind in London and Solent. Again we are down to a numbers game played by scientists. Background is 5/1000 morbidity, with dispersal via drain/air, OK figures go up to 10-15 /1000 morbidity. OK 990-995/ 1000 don't die; thats OK mentality. Where are the morals in such remote/decisions.
Westinghouse were one of the first to use plasma technology to vitrify radioactive waste. This is probably the safest treatments of radioactive waste, other than not producing waste - ie find another technology that has use for that material
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13/06/2008, 4:03 AM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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13/06/2008, 5:04 AM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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The EU will vote in favour for more incinerators what ever name they call them by.They know that the amount of rubbish we all create is and will grow over the next 15 years.Huge amounts of smelly stuff,burning they know is the only answer no matter how much we all recycle .Recycling will low on the agenda for most of Europe as it heads into recession .As world banking and financial dealings move to parts of the middle east / India and China.The western world could lose billions of dollars and yes we could end up recycling more because we won't be able too afford items of consumer-able goods and less food. This credit crunch could make the great depression of the 1920's look like a cake walk.
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13/06/2008, 10:50 AM
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GreenBlue
Joined on 24/05/2008
Posts 85
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Yes and we can walk out of this crunch if we invest, and give investors reasons to preferentially invest, in sustainable energy recovery technology from digesters of sorted food waste, or gasplama investments of the rest of waste to efficient energy/ hydrogen for future hydrogen fuel cell cars. Actually this investment is going on already if you view the FT, Goldman Sachs companies and alike. We can use these technologies to our economic regrowth, energy and resource advantage. Many intelligent experts agree. The opposite is the 30 year incinerator millstone, economic mire and waste business mafias; using huge government PFI credit (50%)subsides.
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13/06/2008, 11:36 AM
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ironsmad
Joined on 12/03/2008
Posts 131
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Re: Incinerators & infant mortality rates at electoral ward level
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Our economic growth is now lagging in 17th place behind Israel, this country is now skint and still fighting 2 wars that they can never win. With over 5 million inactive work -shy adults
and unemployment rising each month,any investments in new technologies and fuels will be limited.With the no vote looking like it will win in Ireland Europe looks doomed.
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